Kickstarter-prohibition with new license?

#40, by marvel Monday, 14. April 2014, 20:13 13 years ago

Tom, i dont compare these two engines. I compare the marketing idea

#41, by Suro Monday, 14. April 2014, 20:46 13 years ago

After thinking the whole day, swallowing my own anger and realizing that some of the things I was angry about were missunderstandings, here is thought-result.

At the end of the day there are 2 important points that need to be considered for pricing and revenue and stuff like that.

- Software needs to be affordable to make adventures.
- VS-Team needs to be financial stable enough so they can spend more time on fixing and adding stuff

These two are the most important things for BOTH the users and the VS-Team. If it isn't affordable, there will be not many users. If the VS-Team isn't financially stable/indipendent we will end up with something like a half dead piece of software that doesn't get the attention it would normally deserve.
I think this is something the users need to understand as well when making suggestions on how much they want to pay.

Of course, the price could still be at 35$ with no revenue whatsoever. Though that would mean that Visionaire would (maybe?) be not developed on a regular basis. Bugs will take time to be fixed because the updates roll out less frequently, because the guys need to work on their "real" jobs to get them money (to stay alive and silly stuff like that).

With that in mind, here are suggestions:

1.)
I'm actually fine with the 10% for the Indies. Yes, it's crazy I know, but 10% of the earnings is not really THAT much.
My calculation goes as like this for steam (warning, it is only an example because I don't know what I'm talking about. It's a thought experiment. Please tell me if I'm completely wrong.):
Sell it for 10 Bucks on Steam. Steam will take 30% and give you 70%.
So they transfer 7 bucks on your paypal account. Paypal takes (I heard) 10-15% of each incomming transfer.
You have 6.51 on your Paypal account now. From this the VS-Team wants 10%, which is (round about) 0,65 cent.
Yes it is something you have to pay "as well", but don't tell me that this is MUCH for the engine you made your game with.

THAT BEING SAID! I think it would be nice to see something like:
"10% if you earn more than XX$ per fiscal year on the game"
I think that would take a lot of the OMG factor of this.

2.)
VS Team:
Go Greenlight.
The free version is nearly PERFECT for this kind of thing. first of all, it is free. Second of all you might be able to intigrate workshop stuff in it (3D Models and the like).
And last but not least, you might get a gigantic user base.

3.)
Kickstarter:
I have no idea here.
I understand the problem/danger of Devs "selling" the game there, maybe even making a profit, and you getting none of it. I have not really an idea how to "fix" this.
Though, I do think, that a point & click adventure can easily get to the 12500 Euro point. Heck, even the small Dave Gilbert Adventures have a budget of 10.000 each (I read this on here I think). And while I love those adventures to hell, they are not what I would call highly professional (Dave, if you read this, sorry <3).
Meaning, the animation is still kind of stiff, you can still kind of hear that the voices weren't recorded in a sound studio and so on.

#42, by saintandsimon Monday, 14. April 2014, 20:57 13 years ago

another idea: WHICH IS EXCELLENT (I pat my own head right now).

What if VS-team gets a collaboration with Steam Workshop. That gives an immense fanbase. And then you could lower the royalties (and a collaboration with Steam where Steam gives the paid % to VS, and sales reports of sold units would be easier to get from the Steamplatform?), and still gets so much money that the team can basically make a living with this engine?

#43, by Suro Monday, 14. April 2014, 20:59 13 years ago

“
another idea: WHICH IS EXCELLENT (I pat my own head right now).

What if VS-team gets a collaboration with Steam Workshop. That gives an immense fanbase. And then you could lower the royalties (and a collaboration with Steam where Steam gives the paid % to VS, and sales reports of sold units would be easier to get from the Steamplatform?), and still gets so much money that the team can basically make a living with this engine?
„

Too late! HA!

It's #2 in my post!

#44, by Ocaso Monday, 14. April 2014, 21:01 13 years ago

With the indie license (50 €) ... we are free to publish on Steam, GOG, Android and IOS?

#45, by HellVanSing Monday, 14. April 2014, 21:29 13 years ago

Yes, we are allowed to.

#46, by Simon_ASA Monday, 14. April 2014, 22:35 13 years ago

You could probably sell different versions depending on their features.

- It's OK to pay much more than the current 35€ for the VS4 version that alows 3D characters + Mac export.
- But it's not OK to pay a fee + 10% for someone who doesn't plan to use the 3D feature and only uses the features already available in Version 3.

Honestly, the features of the V3 are already great and I can make my game with it, except for some bugs that I expected to be fixed! (like the sound stopping during videos). I don't need 3D, I don't really need Mac export. So I don't have any reason to give 10% of my revenues. I just agree to pay more than the 35€ because your worked hard on the new version.

Sell us a VS4 "very basic version" (same than V3 with bugs fixed) without 3D and without Mac/Android export for 50€/60€ and I'm happy. You could also sell the Mac converter alone for a certain price. It'd be interesting.
The 10% fee can seem small to you, but they're also 10% that I can't invest in another project. And I'm not trying to sound selfish, I just don't have any funds...

Oh, and please don't compare Visionaire with the UDK or Unity. If VS has to be compared with another engine, it's Wintermute, which is free for Windows. I know Unity enough to see that it offers infinite possibilities, which is not the case of VS. You can make a FPS, a car game, RPG, tower defense, strategy and more with Unity, this is not possible with VS.

#47, by Simon_ASA Monday, 14. April 2014, 22:51 13 years ago

“
I'm actually fine with the 10% for the Indies. Yes, it's crazy I know, but 10% of the earnings is not really THAT much.
My calculation goes as like this for steam (warning, it is only an example because I don't know what I'm talking about. It's a thought experiment. Please tell me if I'm completely wrong.):
Sell it for 10 Bucks on Steam. Steam will take 30% and give you 70%.
So they transfer 7 bucks on your paypal account. Paypal takes (I heard) 10-15% of each incomming transfer.
You have 6.51 on your Paypal account now. From this the VS-Team wants 10%, which is (round about) 0,65 cent.
Yes it is something you have to pay "as well", but don't tell me that this is MUCH for the engine you made your game with.
„

You forgot 20% of taxes

And is it 10% of the earnings, or 10% of the total ?
Anyway it's not the problem :

indeed, a 10% fee is quite small. But, is it someting that has to be paid for the whole life of your game ?
When do we pay ? Every month, every year ? How will you make sure that we paid ?

Depending on the frequency you expect the payment, the indie developer (who is often alone at work and doesn't have a secretary) will spend some time on managing the money, where he could spend some time on his projects. This is to be taken into account. I know I already spend to much time in other things than development.

Giving a permanent 10% fee on the sales of a game means that you have to take care of it for years. You can't know what will happen to you, or your game, in 10 years. This is something that has to be thought seriously.

#48, by Suro Monday, 14. April 2014, 23:06 13 years ago

“
indeed, a 10% fee is quite small. But, is it someting that has to be paid for the whole life of your game ?
When do we pay ? Every month, every year ? How will you make sure that we paid ?
„

Here:

“
Provisionsermittlung
Zur Ermittlung der abzuführenden Provisionen an das Visionaire Team bieten sich 3 Möglichkeiten an.
a) Der Lizenznehmer übermittelt dem Visionaire-Team pro Quartal die Verkaufsstatistiken aus den jeweiligen Marktplätzen (Apple Store, Android Store, Steam, GOG, Amazon,...)
b) Der Lizenznehmer gibt dem Visionaire Team den Zugang zu den jeweiligen Marktplätzen. So kann das Visionaire Team die Höhe der 10% Abgabe selbst berechnen.
c) Das Visionaire Team stellt das Spiel unter dem eigenen Account ein und führt die Erlöse abzgl. der Provisionen pro Quartal an den Entwickler ab. Hierfür ist allerdings im Vorfeld jeweils die Machbarkeit und Sinnhaftigkeit zu prüfen.

Die Abgabe ist nach jedem Quartal des Kalenderjahres, bis spätestens Ende des Folgemonats (30.4., 31.7., 31.10., 31.1.), zu entrichten. Das Visionaire Team wird entsprechende Rechnungen ausstellen und übermitteln.
„

As Marvel said, wait for the translation

As for the "how to make sure we pay", that relies on the trust in us (the people who buy this). Which is nice. I wouldn't like some kind of "control thing" that watches over my shoulder while I sell stuff.

“
Depending on the frequency you expect the payment, the indie developer (who is often alone at work and doesn't have a secretary) will spend some time on managing the money, where he could spend some time on his projects. This is to be taken into account. I know I already spend to much time in other things than development.

Giving a permanent 10% fee on the sales of a game means that you have to take care of it for years. You can't know what will happen to you, or your game, in 10 years. This is something that has to be thought seriously.
„

Welcome to the wondeful world of EVERYTHING that makes money.
If you are not employed and have your own company that sells something you made, you do exactly that. Always.

Also, for details on how this is calculated and how long and when you have to pay you will have to wait for the translation. Sorry :/

#49, by Deni Monday, 14. April 2014, 23:40 13 years ago

Hi guys,

I'm new to this community, but if I may say something regarding licensing.

I read this whole tread because I think that VS suit my needs and I want to get my fingers on it. But, this whole issue with licensing, well, it is a problem to many users including me.

My idea is somewhat similar to what is Suro said. The percentage should be calculated according to earnings from the game/project only in the first year.

For example, if you publish a game on Steam and your game reaches, let's say

$1000+ = 1%
$5000+ = 3%
$10000+ = 5%
$20000+ = 10%

or maybe

$1000 to $10000 - 5%
above $20000+ - 10%

It doesn't have to be exactly as I wrote above, you will decide, but I think this is fair for everyone. Maybe some users will publish more than one game in a year, that's even more because my solution is per a game in the first year.

Here's just my 2 cents.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. If you want to make some extra funds, well you should make a few tutorials similar to Gnomon or Digital Tutors and sell them from $50 - $100. I will be the first one who will buy them and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, because I can't find anything decent to start and make games with VS on the web. You will quickly reach a thousand sells and that's not a lot of users who will buy them, there will be more. Multiply that with $50 or $100, well, it's a decent figure. With every new version and new features you guys implement in the engine you will make another set of tutorials and you will earn more.

I'm sure that you guys worked hard to develop the engine and you need to be awarded, but in the other hand, users also work hard on their small games/projects. It is a double-edged sword.

Kind regards,
Deni

#50, by Simon_ASA Tuesday, 15. April 2014, 12:14 13 years ago

“
Maybe some users will publish more than one game in a year.
„

This can be true for pro developers, but I don't believe that an indie dev will sell several games a year, they're too long and exhausting to develop correctly. In the case of the pro version of VS, it's ok to pay more + a fee. But I still can't agree on the indie version. An indie dev is trying to start something, to grow, to build both his game and his society. If you add more troubles to him, there's no way he can become a studio and buy the pro version someday... My game ASA has been greenlit 2 weeks ago. It took one year and a half. In the meantime I didn't earn money from it. Do people realise how difficult it is to be greenlit and sell a game on Steam ? It's not just posting the game on greenlight and waiting...
What I want here is not to complain and say blablabla. If my business grows and if I can make games in better conditions, then I'll be happy to buy the Pro version. However I think it's crazy to release an Indie version with a %fee. That's all. You'll probably lose a lot of potential buyers. It's just my opinion though...

@TomBOX

“
If you buy Windows 8 and do not use the internal media player - would you go on and say to microsoft: "Hey, I'm not using the media player, so I don't want to pay so much."
„

Yes, that's exactly what happened already. Microsoft had been assigned in justice by the European council commission because they sell their own products within Windows... Many people were complaining that they don't use the microsoft internet browser. Microsoft lost and paid.

“
Before you buy a product, you will inform you about it. Then you know what the product can do and what you need from it. Then you make a decision.
„

Yes, exactly ! I know what VS3 can do and it was great so I bought it (except for the bugs that I expected to be fixed, and I totally agree to pay for this). And indeed I will informe myself before buying VS4. I'll wait for the translation from german. I know what VS4 can do, and there's 90% of the new features that I don't need right now. What I need is an engine oriented to create 1st person adventures, so a native 360 panorama feature would have been welcome.
I insist that I don't say all this to complain... I'm explaining my point of view so the VS team can have different opinions from different devs.

Anyway, if I'm the only one who doesn't want to pay a %fee as long as I'm indie, then it's OK. I won't complain, and I let the developers of VS manage their own business. I think it's fair. But please, please, release a final V3 with bugs fixed !!! It shouldn't take much efforts since the V4 is done !