Kickstarter-prohibition with new license?

"Each dollar counts for the lonely indie developer..."? Nice, slajmboll... the lonely and poor game developer and the "greedy" developers of the visionaire engine, mh? That's quiet funny

Today i got plenty of messages of german users who read the license models and could not follow this discussion. Also we had several orders of german clients today who find our license models interesting, motivating and fair.

So i think its still a problem of translating und understanding.

Last thing: Lets compare the licences of visionaire 3 and 4. Visionaire 3 only had included support for windows. No Mac, no iOs, no Android. No publishing in digital markets possible. Price 35€

Now we have the indie license for 49€, including all plattforms incl. publishing in digital markets... with the small fee of 10% each sale. How could anyone say this is too expensive? Short term this is WAY cheaper than any other engine.

And for kickstarter: Its NOT a funding of creativity. You simply have to budget your costs (personal, material AND licences) and ask the community for funding. Each pledger also becomes a buyer of the game... and it'd be kind of immoral if you could raise a big amount of money, while the pledgers pay for each game... and the engine developers just get 49€. This is what we take care of with our kickstarter limit.

Ich schmeiß mal mein Englisch über Bord... Klar ist es nachvollziehbar, dass ihr als Entwickler auch von etwas leben müsst, insofern sind die 49€ und die 10% auch wirklich vollkommen fair.
Das große Problem seitens der Indieentwickler ist nur, dass auf die 10% von euch noch viele weitere kommen. Umsatzsteuer und Zwischenhändler - da bleibt am Ende nicht mehr viel übrig. 10% Engine, 19% Umsatzsteuer, 30% Abgabe an den Zwischenhändler wie Steam, Google oder Apple. Summa summarum sind das dann schon 51% die wegfallen, weitere Unkosten noch gar nicht einberechnet.
Von der Seite her aus ist es also auch vollkommen nachvollziehbar dass die Entwickler ebenso ein Problem haben.
Wir haben also zwei Seiten die beide mehr oder minder irgendwie in den sauren Apfel beißen müssen, aber das ist eher ein Problem der heutigen Zeit als eines dass sich auf diesem Wege aus der Welt schaffen ließe.
Ich bin raus aus der Diskussion, wir können und hier nur noch im Kreis drehen.
Wünsche noch einen schönen guten Abend,
Hell van Sing

Will there be more features added to version 4 ?

yes. but that's probably not the right thread for this topic

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Das große Problem seitens der Indieentwickler ist nur, dass auf die 10% von euch noch viele weitere kommen. Umsatzsteuer und Zwischenhändler - da bleibt am Ende nicht mehr viel übrig. 10% Engine, 19% Umsatzsteuer, 30% Abgabe an den Zwischenhändler wie Steam, Google oder Apple. Summa summarum sind das dann schon 51% die wegfallen, weitere Unkosten noch gar nicht einberechnet.

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Vielen Dank für Deinen Beitrag. Die Rechnung ist so zum einen nicht ganz richtig, da nicht alle Zwischenhändler 30% nehmen wie die unverschämten Leute von Apple. Hinzu kommt, das es halt auch außerordentliche Gewinnpotentiale gibt. Über die digitalen Marktplätze kann man halt sehr viel schneller und mehr verkaufen. Und die 10% Abgabe wird ja auf den NETTOpreis erhoben - ich glaube das wird derzeit ganz falsch gerechnet. 19% fallen meines Erachtens auch weg, weil die Umsatzsteuer in internationalen, digitalen Märkten nicht erhoben wird... aber das muss ich nochmal prüfen.

Well, Visionaire 3 license did write out that publishing was possible on thirdware distributionplatforms like Steam and so on, if it was under 15 euros? Am I wrong?

I do not wanna call names Marvel, but sometimes my emotions get the best of me , but I really do find a problem with this Kickstarter thing particularly. If you really needed a limit on Kickstarter maybe 50k would be more decent? Each pledger doesn't necessary get the game, it depends on hur much they pledge, if the developer even wanna give away the game as a gift or not. The engine developers doesn't really just get 49 euros, they get 10% of every future sale of the game.

But I don't know, I get the feeling that this discussion doesn't get anywhere. I could technically still Kickstart with my 3.7 license and not upgrade, but the reason for voicing my concerns is that I'm actually a bit afraid that you will loose some customers this way, and with that, no more maintining the engine (and I really don't want that, since it's still a good engine), so, I'm giving my two cents.

But we who plan on selling on Steam doesn't get that much profit anyway. 30% on steam, up to 25-35 % on taxes in Sweden (they are really awfully high). Plus Kickstarter fee of 5% and Amazon Payment fee of 2-5%. Not much left In general, how is the taxes in Germany?

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I get the feeling that this discussion doesn't get anywhere. I could technically still Kickstart with my 3.7 license and not upgrade, but the reason for voicing my concerns is that I'm actually a bit afraid that you will loose some customers this way, and with that, no more maintining the engine (and I really don't want that, since it's still a good engine), so, I'm giving my two cents

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Actually your opinions and suggestions are highly appreciated. And for sure we'll do some improvements here and there. Let's see what come's out.

I read somewhere on the forum that you, creators of Visionaire, have another jobs and VS is only a hobby project - something like that. I consider Visionaire Editor as a highly professional developer kit and I'm more than eager to support your great work by buying your product. But honestly guys, I don't want to pay high fees to steam, gog, paypal and now you. I would like to make a game and then be able to make another game from the profit of the first game. But I'm not Tim Schafer nor Brian Fargo. I have absolutely no guarantee that even one person would buy my game. I just want to make my own game and try to sell it, that's all. And for PRO licence - if I would have 4k dollars I would probably hook up with some programmer friend who knows Unity. But I would like to make a game on my own without any other person involved except me. So my opinion - be so good and make some "middle option": no kickstarter support, but also no fees. Price: 1000 dollars.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but is that true ???

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With the small fee of 10% each sale. How could anyone say this is too expensive?

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So when we sell our games, we'll have to give you 10% ?? oO

I already give 20% to the musicians, voice actors, and other things. +20 or 30% to Desura/Steam (depending on the plateform). +x% if I use Paypal... Then there are taxes (21% in France)... and software fees (adobe !). What's left for me ? No, really, I'm indie ! I didn't earn more than 5k€ last year and I don't plan to become rich with my game projects.

If this is true, I'll restart all my project with another engine, I don't have the choice. I don't even earn enough money to live from, this is unacceptable.

I do not have a problem with the new license options. But got the indie license for 3.7.1 (35 euro) like 2 weeks ago and I would like to know if I can update to the 4.0 indie licence with a little discount.? Because it seems like I just threw 35 Euro out the window.

Is there any chance of this going to happen?